Dear All,

the ALL OR NOTHING CHARGE has become a bit of a Frankenstein's monster and seems to be deployed as the standard operating method for Horse as opposed to the exception which is how it was written.

It was created as a decisive gamer winner/saver to be deployed sparingly but now I see lots of examples of it becoming the norm in games. I hesitate to legislate (as gamers can of coure ignore this such Big Brother behaviour as Nanny State Government) but in order to rein in on excessive use of AoN I would implore gamers to deploy it with restraint and the spirit of the age in mind.

I'd fully agree Barry. We've always limited this to ONE charge for the units in question. Our rationale being that its pretty difficult to set up for the individual commanders and at the end of the charge the horses would be pretty blown.
Pretty sure that is what you've said as well.
Some wargamers though are always going to push it. specially when you see some of the "questions" asked on other fora!

Herr Barry, it's all your creation and it seem's "it's alive I tell you, it's alive".
From what I've read of the period Horse and Dragoon regiments were organised into brigades.
These coming under the command of a Major General or Brigadier General who in turn en masse came under the control of a Lt.General.
These formations seem to have been on stand-by to support their infantry flanks when in battle or as a final punch nearing the end of battles.
It seems to me that at no time did individual squadrons act singularly unless on scouting or foraging missions.
Regiments of multiple squadrons are obviously going to use the AoN formation when charging for the first time during a game solely because they get more figures fighting in the melee.
I do agree this is a gamey tactic and not even regiments historically acted alone on the battlefield.
This monster is of your creating Barry so your the best person to get brains together and come up with a answer.

Ray.

Yes and indeed I do not think Herr Frankenstein intended his creation to be used for ill either!
On the two squadrons thing Ray you are mssing the point I have made many times before on the forum, a BLB squadron is not a single squadron.6 models x 30 or 35 = 180 or 210 men which is the normal size of 2 squadrons of the period. So, squadrons never operate singly in BLB. on the table it may look like that but in relative number terms not.

On your question relating to Ross's/Hay's my inclination is that there is a miss type/translation/transposition error somewhere. A single squadron of strength 300-320 is so far removed from anything laid down anywhere in any organizational manuals or data to set the senses tingling. That number is more likely to be 2 or 3 squadrons. English Horse regiments bareyl managed 240 men in the field (in 2 or 3 squadrons) so a dragoon squadron of 320 sounds just wrong.
The double casualties idea won';t help you as be disadvantaging yourself in the initial combat by only counting 1 6 model group instead of nearer 2.
I would just field them as 2 squadrons and if you have OCD about exact numbers do 6 and 4 or 5 and 5 and fill the rest of the base with something scenic.

Barry,

I've just been picking at my own brain and maybe this is a answer around the problem.
Do away with the AoN charge altogether and instead give a Horse or Dragoon formation a +1 for each supporting squadron on it's flank's during a charge.
This would stop the multiple ranks in a melee and stop individual squadrons acting alone.
So a squadron in the centre of a charging formation would get a +2 as it would have support on both flanks and a squadron on the flank would receive a +1...just a thought

Ray.

Interesting discussion.

I must admit I get a bit confused about the whole cavalry organisation in BLB.
This is how I see it. Most cavalry regiments fielded 2 squadrons, I know there are exceptions like the big Austrian regiments, some elite French regiments and the household troops. As Barry has said, a 6 figure tabletop squadron in BLB represents two real squadrons so most regiments would be represented by one 6 figure unit. Two or more of these units would form a brigade. The intro part of the rule book mentions the weak English horse and that a regiment would usually be represented by one 6 figure unit with several units forming a 'brigade of English horse', I would suggest that this it also true of most armies horse and certainly the Dutch and French.
The bit I'm not sure about is, does this brigade then operate as a tabletop regiment under the rules or as a brigade? Maybe if the 6 figure unit was treated the same as a battalion of infantry and organised into brigades with a brigade general figure, the A or N real wouldn't come into play very often because there would be few multiple squadron regiments?
Best wishes,
Simon

Example of a all or nothing charge

I'm thinking of the French Horse at Neerwinden after the infantry assaults failed. But that was mass French Cavalry carrying breastworks defended by infantry

From the books/articles/sections of books I have read on Ramillies, although a massive cavalry action on the Confederate left/ French right, they talked about groups of sqns charging, falling back, regrouping, etc.

Interesting discussion.

cheers

Edward

The problem would be solved if people actually read the rules, the very last preconditions states. "The regiment has not used the All or Nothing charge option in the game so far" page 44

Cheers
Dave

Barry,

I have to disagree with you on the cavalry issue as in the rules six figures represents a squadron, twelve figures represents two squadron's and so on.
This may not be your simulation of the cavalry, but if your saying that the six figures are actually two squadrons then that is going to confuse people into thinking every three figures are a squadron.
As I have already said individual squadrons did not operate on there own on the battlefield, but rather in brigades of 5 or more squadrons.
Take the Gendamerie de France 8 squadrons and a brigade unto itself.
Horse & Dragoon regiments varied in numbers of squadrons and manpower.
I have three Horse regiments all of two squadrons and they number between 270 and 300 Officers & men.
Lumley's Horse which was a three squadron regiment at 35 Officers & 457 men.
Dragoon regiments were no different as Ross's (2 sqn) 26 Officers & 298 men, Hay's (1 sqn) 25 Officers & 315 men and although not British the Erbprinz Dragoon's (4 sqns) 642 men.
So on average we are talking 150 plus men per squadron.

The AoN charge is a once per battle tactic and after it's use the regiment if in it's multi-rank formation only fight with it's front squadron unless it form's into line.
In my previous post I have given a example around the problem of the AoN charge...see what you think.
It would make people use the line formation rather than the multi-rank and is probably more historic.

Best Wishes,

Ray.

The rules do say on page 5 that a 6 cavalry unit is a squadron but then go on to say that the model to man ratio is 1:40.
On page 8 though Barry explains that a gaming squadron numerically represents two real life squadrons so squadrons are acting in concert at all times and never individually.

In the WSS, a French squadron was made up of four companies of 36 men so the paper strength of a two squadron regiment would be 284 men, thus the 6 figure BLB unit would represent the whole regiment at 1:40. The organisation of the gendarmes and Maison de Roi was different.
I seem to recall reading that the paper strength of most English horse regiments was around 350 so the 6 figure unit would again represent the whole regiment given a reduction for campaign strength.

In my last post I did the calculation's although squadron strength did vary.
Using the 1:40 ratio doesn't work otherwise the six figure squadron would equal 240 horsemen per squadron.
I can see why Barry is saying it represents two squadrons as the number in some cases would represent them, but a 1:25 ratio is nearer the figure.
If on a wargames table you wanted to field the Gendamerie de France with 8 squadron's, would you represent them with 24 figures or 48 figures.
If your saying 6 figure's represent two squadron's then 3 figure's must represent a squadron.
The ratio I've given gives us roughly 150 horsemen per squadron which is correct using the campaign establishments in my last post.

Right...I must go and find some paracetamol

Cheers,

Ray.

Ray,

I have absolutely no idea what point you are trying to make here. That you are right and I am not? I have no interest in winning an argument about who has read more books. It is nothing to do with how many men are in a squadron or not. I understand basic arithmetic, I did it at school. The rules are written in a particular way, they are published and people use them. I cannot start pratting about with figure to man ratios and dropping things out of an established set of rules because they do not fit your view of history. BLB is a just a set of instructions to guide people through a game like Monopoly or Buckaroo. They have mechanics and principles, they create a gaming simulation of something that is not governed by dice, rulers and charts. There is no connection between toy soldiers and men being sliced in half by weapons. I really can't be arsed trying to justify why things are the way they are. It works and I honestly do not care how many men are in a squadron.There comes a point were the hair cannot be split any further...

I really don't have the time or inclination to care if a squadron has 150 or 320 men. In BLB a squadron calls for six figures, six figures is what I paint and what hits the table. Combine 2-4 BLB squadrons together and I call it a regiment. Combine 2-3 regiments together and that's my brigade.

Getting back on topic about the All or Nothing charge. I believe Barrys intention was this action to be a game saver / winner. That means to me it is something that happens later in a game vs the first action of the horse.

Our groups suggestion is to make it more 'expensive', in terms of orders, to do. The rules already say forming 2-4 squadrons requires a Form order for each to combine themselves into a 'regiment'. Once formed an AoN charge is possible with the unit.

The first change we suggest is that once formed that regiment counts as one unit for army total vs counting the individual squadrons towards that total. This effectively reduces how many units can get an order based on your Order Allowance roll.

The example: A player has 15 units in his army, he rolls 100% order allowance, and everything moves etc, but he decides to Form 4 squadrons into one regiment. Next turn he now has 11 units in his order allowance army count. Less if he formed other squadrons into regiments.

The second change we suggest, to order this regiment to do an AoN charge will take him 4 charge orders, one for each squadron in the unit.

Now he rolls 50% army Order Allowance, so instead of 15/2=8 (BLB rounds up) units to give an order to he has 11/2=6 units. Depending on his battlefield priorities/needs he has a decision to make. Does he spend 4 orders this early on an AoN charge leaving him 2 to use elsewhere, or does he wait and gets his army in better position to support an AoN charge later?

What also happens naturally is orders are freed up later in the game. As the foot slug it out in musketry they don't need as many orders. Also as the game progresses some things on the battlefield have developed where a fresh horse regiment kept in reserve can now exploit the AoN charge.

Those two changes won't stop a player from doing them but it attempts to make a player wait until later when he has both the extra orders and the battle has developed enough to make it as Barry intended, save it or win it.

Joe

Joe, et al; that's how the rules currently work, if a cavalry regiment of 3 squadrons wishes to make AON charge then they have to use 3 order markers, if the unit only had 2 squadrons then they would only use 2 order markers. Once these units have made their AON charge they can no longer make another one as they don't pass the last restriction on which units can make an AON charge. The AON charge is a one-off effect per regiment, once they have made that charge they then operate as seperate squadrons.
Cheers
Dave

Barry, what was that all about??? I didn't realise we were having a heated argument.
All I was stating was some cavalry formations and their strength's.
Like Joe, all my squadrons are each represented by 6 figures on the tabletop.
Regiments are represented by 1 to 4 squadrons and so many regiments to a brigade.
I wasn't asking for a rule change only a alternate idea around the AoN charge formation.

Cheers,

Ray.